SID: Hello Sid Roth here. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. Talking about supernatural, my guest went to Heaven every day for three years and was taught mysteries on how to awaken your spiritual senses, your supernatural hearing, your supernatural smell, your supernatural sight, your supernatural feeling, and he wants to pray because God told him he had this gift for your supernatural senses to be awoken. Do you want that? You know, James, I really protest. I mean, I have not been to Heaven once. And in 2010, you started going to Heaven every day. For three years, four months and two weeks you visited Heaven. Why you? What did you do to get this?
JAMES: Well actually Sid, the Lord told me why. And basically why was that because I had been away in the Army for a whole career, I wasn’t really well known in the church at all. And when people would look at me and hear from me that they would say, if he can do it, I can do it.
SID: And that’s the whole purpose of our show. Anything my guests can do, you can do better. In fact, it’s God’s part for you to do better. That’s what so great about God. Okay. Why would you say, bottom line, did you have these encounters in Heaven?
JAMES: Well the Lord was teaching me things and asking me to share with other people. He was really teaching me how to activate spiritual senses, spiritual gifts and how then to teach people and impart to people so that they could also have the same experiences. So the whole purpose was for me to receive things that I could release to other people.
SID: Okay. Open Heaven, that’s a term I hear a lot. You were instructed to pray that people receive this seer anointing. People operate in an open Heaven. What is, define open Heaven for me.
JAMES: Well when I get an assignment from the Lord I always go to the Word and began to do research, and what I found was that from Genesis through the Book of Revelation open Heaven is taught over and over. Jacob saw an open Heaven. We see Daniel saw an open Heaven. Isaiah saw an open Heaven. And when Jesus was baptized God tore the Heaven open over him, and I can’t find anywhere in Scripture that he sewed it back together. Heaven is open and he wants us to know it. And Jesus said to Nathaniel, “You shall see Heaven open and the angels ascending and descending on the Son of Man.” Now I have a habit that any promise in the Bible I believe is for me. God preserved that not just as history, but to release something to his people, and I receive that.
SID: And I have to tell you this, God is not a respecter of persons. If every promise in the Bible is for James, every promise in the Bible is for you. In fact, the Bible says, “All of his promises are yes and amen.” Amen means yes and so be it.
SID: So on this, when, but it seems to me that it’s easier to operate in an open Heaven today than 30 years ago when I became a new believer.
JAMES: I believe that in the Kingdom of God there are seasons and things are shifting. And I believe that we’re in the season of the open Heaven right now when this manifestation is available to everyone who is willing to be open to it.
SID: I’m practical, James. What does it literally mean if I’m walking in an open Heaven, what can I do that I can’t do if I’m not walking in an open Heaven?
JAMES: Well one is, as you were talking about, the seer anointing, you begin to see the things in the spiritual realm, but all of the senses are activated. The hearing, you can hear the Word of the Lord. When the disciples were on the Mount of Transfiguration they saw Moses, they saw Elijah, they saw Jesus transformed, they saw a cloud, but they also heard the voice of the Lord. And I think in open Heaven times we can hear. Also the fragrances of Heaven began to manifest and taste, the Lord says, “Taste and see that I’m good.” But I believe the Lord has taste as sweet as honey on our lips.
SID: Every, your every sense, you’re saying.
JAMES: All the senses.
SID: There is a spiritual sense and a natural sense.
SID: We all understand the natural sense. Many believers operate in the natural. Why would you want to operate in the natural and be as limited as any other human that’s ever lived? Why not operate the senses? You have ears and don’t hear, but God is going to activate in a lot of you. Now my Jewish people were stubborn and we got stuck. And you know what? It’s not confined to Jewish people.
JAMES: No it’s not.
SID: Many Christians are stuck today. What do you mean? Tell me from the Bible what you mean by stuck?
JAMES: Well in Deuteronomy, chapter 29, Moses is summing up his time with the children of Israel. I think the children of Israel represented humanity in general and I see myself in that as well. I think everyone that God has created can see themselves in these stories. And Moses said, you know, “I’ve been with you all of this time. Now you saw in Egypt, with your own eyes, you saw the things that God did, the miracles, the signs and wonders that God, you separated. And yet, yet to this day, God has not given you a heart for perceiving, eyes to see or ears to hear.” When I read that it just, something inside of me just felt so sad, and I thought, well that could be said of our people today. We need to break out of that limitation and let all of spiritual senses, let God open up our spiritual senses so that we’re functioning. I think we should function at a higher level in the spiritual senses than we’ve been trained to do in the natural.
SID: You know, an example from the Old Covenant, these are examples for us that are so practical.
SID: Don’t you tear out your Old Testament. You won’t understand the Jew and Israel, and End Time events. Don’t be meshuga. You read the whole Word of God. But tell me about, in the Old Covenant, Elisha, when his eyes were opened.
JAMES: Well I think that we tend to over complicate things, people trying to look for some kind of special formula or some kind of special person. Well this is so natural in the supernatural realm that God wants us to live in. And Elisha was being hunted down by this huge army. His servant was panicking because he saw this big army. But Elisha said, “There are more with us than there are with them.” And his servant said, are you meshuga? There is no, there’s just you and me, an old man and me.
JAMES: Elijah prayed such a simple prayer.
SID: What did he pray?
JAMES: He said, “Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he can see.” That’s it. And his eyes were opened, and he looked, and he saw that the mountains were covered with horses and chariots of fire. And indeed, there were more with them than there were with the army. Then Elijah prayed another prayer. He said, “Close the eyes of the army.” Everybody in the army went blind. And when he took them where he wanted to take them, he prayed again and said, “Open their eyes that they can see” and their eyes popped open. I think that we need to build up the kind of supernatural faith to begin to operate in the anointing of Elisha, to begin to speak. You know, the Bible says that we are like, we have a nature like Elijah and we should be doing the things that he did, but he gave a double portion of that to Elisha. And I think we can operate in the double portion anointing of Elisha, and we don’t have to complicate it. Just pray for people, Lord.
SID: Okay. I’m going to turn James loose a little bit. But I want him to teach a little more so you’ll get unstuck. We’ll be right back.
Sid: I’m going to tell you something we have a breakthrough week last week and this week. Last week I interviewed Pastor Henry Wright from the Pleasant Valley Church in Thomaston, Georgia. And this week I’m interviewing Anita Hill who is also a Pastor there and a teacher. And they have found that there are specific doors for specific diseases. When you repent of these doors and another name for a door is sin. When you repent for these specific sins you get your healing miracle, it’s that simple. I think you really need some help to get confused. But I was speaking before we went on the air today with Anita Hill and I said “Anita, are many medical doctors taking advantage of this teaching because they have found that diseases or derivatives of diseases for close to 500 the roots of them. Are doctors coming to study under Henry?
Anita: Very definitely, in fact very recently we had a surgeon that came to go through our program and she had gone back to her practice and she does heart surgery part of the time now. And the other part of her time is spent in praying with her patients according to how we pray here based on the word. She says and she’ll have to give her own testimony she’s getting better results with what God is doing than with the open heart surgery.
Sid: Well, I’ll tell you what I know that is true but too many people have to have bypasses and all different types of heart surgery and drugs because and by the way I am in favor of that if it’s a matter of that or them dying. But I know that there’s a better way, I know that there’s a more excellent way I guess that’s why the book “A More Excellent Way” came out.” Tell me real quick before we get into the meat of this interview one more healing testimony that comes to mind of someone that had a door. I would like to know something about… what about arthritis?
Anita: There we’re dealing with bitterness, jealousy and envy. In the Bible it tells us that jealousy and envy is the rottenness of the bone. And so God has already said a lot of this already it’s not that we thought of it but God did and put it in His word. And if people will go to their Bibles and really read them take that word in fullness you can’t miss it. When we talk about heart disease it says “Men’s hearts shall fail them in the last days because of fear.” When we talk about autoimmune diseases and diseases of the immune system it says in the word “That a broken spirit, a merry heart does good like a medicine but a broken spirit dries up the bones.” And what’s in the bones but the immune system. And so…
Sid: And so it’s all there in the word, it’s a matter of just digging it out.
Anita: Just multiplied it out for the diseases that are here in the world today. So you can take that broken spirit and extrapolate out the HIV, or whatever when the immune system is involved.
Sid: Hm. Is there any disease that God doesn’t have an answer for?
Anita: He said in Psalms 103:3 “I’m the God who forgiveth ALL your iniquities and I heal all your diseases.” That’s what I believe and that’s what I’ve seen Him do. But there’s always an “if and but” in the Bible. We have to appropriate these things, we can’t go around and sin and curse God and expect his blessing…
Sid: But you know I have to tell you this Anita, there are many Christians understand the scriptures in healing they can quote them better than me and you put together and yet they have disease and they don’t get healed.
Anita: Right because there can be blocks to their healing or they’re leaving a step out. Maybe they think that we don’t have to repent.
Sid: Anita you teach on the “8 R’s” to freedom please do that now and I believe many are going to be set free just by listening to this teaching.
Anita: Alright in the 8 R’s they all begin with R. The first is Recognize the problem have discernment because God said in Isaiah 5:13 “That My people have gone into captivity because they have no knowledge” and so need to recognize what they are. Then we have to take Responsibility you cannot just say “Well, that’s just the way I am.” Let’s say that you’re angry all of the time you have to take responsibility for what you’ve gotten yourself into with your behavior and if you’ve offended your brother then you have to Repent. And repentance means that you are truly sorry and you don’t want to continue to do this action which takes you into Renouncing. Which means turning away from that sin of anger and not wanting to continue it in your life. Then in order not to continue in it you have to Remove it and that can be done through deliverance and separating yourself from that sin. And the 6th R would be continue to Resist going into that sin again. In the word it tells you to resist the devil and he will flee. And then you have to move into Number 7 Rejoice to thank God, praise him and give Him all the glory for what He has done in your life. And then Number 8 would be to Restore Isaiah 42 talks about restoring others. And when you have received your blessing it is on your heart hopefully that you want to share this fruit and help others.
Sid: You know Anita it strikes me that what you’re teaching isn’t just theory you have done this you have been set free and you want to help others be set free. It seems to me that what you were teaching is similar to what other people teach yet you seem to be getting better results why?
Anita: I think again it’s because it’s the fullness of the word. Taking God, might I say, at His word and becoming living word. This stuff can’t just be in your head when it was just in my head you know I was very intellectual 11 years of higher education. I needed this to drop into my heart because all man’s learning had not healed me but God’s word dropping into my heart and my spirit becoming alive unto God, and then being that living word. When you bless others God blesses you. And you can’t lose and you can walk in divine health.
Sid: Now you spend a lot of your time identifying the roots of diseases. I imagine you look at it almost as if you’re a detective trying to get the clues from the word of God.
Anita: It is detective work in one sense you know how it says that the word of God is so simple even a child can understand it. That after awhile when you read the word you can just see all of the stuff that we’re investigating over here God has already said but man in turning away from God for so long has gone into so many more diseases. It’s no wonder he said that we will do greater things then He did there is so many more diseases too.
Sid: Let me ask you a question there’s a lot of fear now here in the United States as you’re aware of about biological warfare and is some of the research you’ve done how that help someone prepare so that they could walk through a situation with these germs and not die?
Anita: Right in the word it says in Psalms 91 “A thousand shall fall on this side and 10 thousand on the other and it shall not come nigh you as children of God.” And so we have take that scripture not that we don’t use wisdom, you know we can’t just be unaware of what’s around us, because there are things in exaggerated amounts can have a negative effect on us but God can protect us in the midst of it. Because were His children and it’s the children’s bread to walk in this divine health.
Sid: Tell me some disease that you’re walking on now that you don’t totally have the door for.
Anita: Well, we are working on autism.
Anita: And some of the other brain dysfunctions but it’s becoming clear and we had young boy with autism who was in all special classes. His social skills were very much under par and after 3 sessions of ministry. But when we deal with children we deal with the parents first because it’s a generational curses that are there. It does not good to get a child healed and then send them back into the same environment that might have made him sick. But this child is now in 3rd grade making A’s and B’s. His eye contact has improved; he is more outgoing with people, no special classes anymore. I think except for physical education where he had to catch up with his physical skills. But there are many children with various learning problems we haven’t dealt with that many children with autism but that is an area where I’m very interested in God healing. Because when I was not a believer I worked for 2 years using union principals of psychology and living with children with autism and I saw not healing.
Anita: So I’m very excited about this area.
Sid: What about all of these drugs they’re giving children today because they have what is it Attention Deficit Disorder what do you think about all of those drugs?
Anita: Well, that’s a case where it says in the word “Peace, peace when there is no peace.” That that’s a false peace and plus I have worked with some children that have been on some of these drugs and we almost lost a little boy because the Ritalin was suppressing his immune system.
Sid: Look hold that thought I want to find out how you really minister on tomorrows broadcast.
Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Henry Wright, and I’m talking to him about his book “A More Excellent Way.” Which is a teaching on the spiritual roots of disease and most people don’t even have a clue about this. Henry I’ll tell you something that’s coming to mind right now, I know a Jewish believer in the Messiah who graduated from a what was called “The Word of Faith” or well I’ll mention it Rhema Bible College, a fine Bible college. She would go around saying “I’m coming down with divine health.” And I understood what she was saying and I agreed with what she was saying and she would say this all the time and yet she died of many diseases a little before her time. Now we can’t talk about her specifically but is it enough to go around saying “I’m coming down with divine health in the name of Jesus” and be healed?
Henry: Well that brings us up to a very difficult theological question. First of all it’s not confession alone that produces health even though confession is a form of meditation of what God has said. When you go back to disease prevention in Deuteronomy chapter 7 beginning in verse 11 through 15 in the Torah, here’s what God said through Moses. “If you’re a doer of the word and you practice the principles that I’ve taught you then I’ll put none of these diseases evil diseases of Egypt upon you but put them upon those that hate you.” And the key issue is this it’s not confession even though you know the truth shall make you free.
Sid: Well in Joshua God said “If you’ll mediate on God’s word.” It’s saying God’s word causes you to believe it.”
Henry: I know but let’s talk about some theology. Today in the name of Yeshua we say we do things. Jesus said “Whatever you ask in My name that shall I do and that shall the Father do.” And were going around with confession and using the name of Yeshua like guaranteed something is going to happen. Except we’ve got a problem we can’t take scripture out of context you can’t take promises out of context without responsibility. Because in Psalm 138 verse 2 part b it says this “He exalts His word even above His name.” And so if we can confess all we want but if we’re participating with sin in our life then confession. You know listen “Obedience is still better than sacrifice.” You can give the sacrifice of praise, you can give the sacrifice of confession and mediation but obedience to God’s word is first principal, repentance from dead works is first principal.
Sid: But give me some examples of some sins that people need to repent of before they’re going to get their healing.
Henry: Well I will say this to you from 1st John chapter 5 and I hope the audience is ready for this one. It says “If a man sees his brother sin a sin unto death he shall not pray for him.” All unrighteousness is sin and there is a sin that is not unto death. Now that brings up a big conversation you know over 50 or 60 major incurable diseases that I deal with ministering prayer, the gifts, the anointing, anointing with oil and prayer, whatever you want to is a waste of time because that disease is unto death because they have committed a sin that is unto death. Now I am told I shall not pray for them; well what do I do I bring them back to 1st John chapter 1 “If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness.” Now what sins are sins that are unto death? You have not asked this specifically but I’m about to tell you.
Sid: Well I sure was thinking it I was waiting for you to come up for air but that’s okay go ahead.
Henry: Most Christians don’t want to think this way. Most believers don’t want to think about responsibility for sin they don’t want to go here so I’m in rough territory so you pray for me because if somebody comes to me…
Sid: Listen we need some answers go for it.
Henry: And the answers are found in God’s word and if somebody comes to me with over 60 incurable diseases I know those diseases are unto death because they have participated with a sin that’s unto death and I shall not pray for them. But I can do is disciple them, bring them to a place of recognition to bring them to repentance so what Yeshua paid for us at the cross will now work for them. And key sins that are sins unto death Number 1 is: unforgiveness. How do I know that? Because it says in Mark 11:25 and 26 in the King James Version it says this “If you from your heart do not forgive your brother his trespass neither Your Father which is in heaven forgive you yours.” If I can show a person that behind this major incurable disease is a sin issue that needs to be repented for but if they have unforgiveness in their heart towards any person living or dead, then I’ve got a problem I want God to forgive them. But God has said “I’ll forgive you in relationship to how you forgive others” because we’re asking God to have mercy on us but we’re not showing mercy to our brother. This is a sin unto death because God intends for us to be a forgiving people.
Sid: Okay, we know about that so just in case someone needs a clarification there are sins unto death but if someone repents they will not be unto death is that what you’re saying?
Henry: What I’m saying is if we meet the conditions of how God has told us to deal with our lives and we’re become doers of the word again. See back in the Torah in Deuteronomy chapter 28 it’s so very clear “If you will be a doer of the word all of these blessings shall come upon you.”
Sid: But Henry there are so many Christians that are mature enough to know about the unforgiveness as you but they’re still in their diseases, what are some of the other bases’ that have to be touched.
Henry: Well they may know righteousness but are they really practicing it?
Sid: You mean if they say I have forgiven someone but any chance they have a chance to slam that person they really just deceive themselves.
Henry: Well conversion is of the heart not of the intellect.
Sid: Woe! You’re getting deep on me now.
Henry: (Laughing) You know I can give mental ascent to a God Sid but it doesn’t mean I have a true heart conversion. And there are blocks to healing in the book “The More Excellent Way.” There’s not only roots to disease listed but there’s 33 blocks to healing that have to be recognized. I suppose what I’m really saying is “Do we really know how God thinks?” Because how God thinks is the best that we can be in our own thought process that’s called the mind of Christ.
Sid: But wait a second I have to go back to unforgiveness forget the other 32. But you’re saying that someone could intellectually forgive but not forgive in their heart. What if they’re deceived and they think that they have forgiven and they haven’t? Is that why a lot of people die that should not?
Henry: Well I have a litmus test. I ask a person who I believe… they say “Well I have forgiven them” but I see the disease is still in their life. And I say when you think about that person you see their face in your minds heart and I use their name do you have a feeling on the inside of you that is still there that rises up the minute I use their name? If they say “Yes” they have not forgiven from the heart.
Sid: Hm. Do you think that… I’m going to do it right now, do you think it’s a salvation issue, forget this life?
Sid: (Laughing) I set you up.
Henry: It’s a salvation issue there’s two sides to this you don’t have to be sinless to obtain heaven as you know it’s still by faith. But what is in our lives here you see that’s what it says in Isaiah chapter 5 Sid “My people have gone into captivity because they have enlarged herself and opened up her mouth with a bout measure and has swallowed their great and famous up into it.” And that’s addressed to covenant people, so the issue is this I don’t think they’ve lost their salvation I don’t think it’s a salvation issue. I think that salvation is more than being born again and most Christians don’t understand that.
Sid: My goodness we just keep opening one can of worms after another. But let’s just go back to something we can deal with. I want to deal with unforgiveness someone that says “I know God says I should forgive therefore I have intellectually forgiven that person. When I think a bad thought I’ll even pray for them but I know that I have these bad thoughts how do I get rid of it I do want to forgive them, how do I get rid of it Henry?”
Henry: Well first of all people don’t understand that what was in the other person that victimized them wasn’t even them. Paul taught us that in Roman’s chapter 7 very clearly. And our fallacy in forgiveness is this that we’ve made the person sin. Now the person may have sin but they’re not sin and we’ve made the person evil along with the evil they did to us. So when God saved me I had lots of stuff in me that wasn’t right, I was a sinner. And God saw past my sin and saw Henry and wanted him. We must have that heart in forgiveness that we don’t judge people according to their sins but we judge them according to what God saw in them from the foundation of the world. But many people stumble over people’s failures, well if God stumbled over my failures He would have rejected me. But aren’t we supposed to think like God in this area? People that need to forgive you have a right to hate sin, you even have the right to hate the sin in the person but we do not have the right to hate the person and that’s the big issue.
Sid: Cancer? Give me an example of someone that was healed and the cause.
Henry: Cancer of course on “It’s Supernatural” your show the lady with the face cancer when she dealt with self-hatred.
Sid: But many people have not heard that testimony, you can say that again.
Henry: I can say it again, when she came to our “For My Life Program” and she had cancer on her face. And when she repented for participating with the sin of self-hatred sincerely from her heart and had lied to her for all of these years and she had become one with it. And her spirituality and her psychology and the disease was the fruit of it and when she repented of it. In that very day the cancer fell off of her face and on to the floor and today she’s well. And other people with cancer we’ve dealt with cancer of the uterus ovarian cancer, where a person hated their feminity, they hated being a female. Maybe their daddy said “I wish I had a boy baby whatever when they made their peace that they were female. Male and female created He them when they made the peace with themselves about their femininity God is right there to restore to them the cleanness and help in those areas. Brain tumors, fibroid tumors are rooted in bitterness and self-bitterness. The big issue is this when we have bitterness for example our body creates toxins, those toxins destroy the centuries of our cells allowing cancer to get a foothold any time we want. Not only that because most anxiety disorders that I deal with are in fear 1st John 4:18 says “There is no fear in love.” So you’ve not been loved perfect that there’s a type of fear that comes and that releases a destruction of the immune system and thereby you can become what is called cancer-prone.
Sid: Hold that thought Mishpochah we’re out of time again…
Sid: My guest by way of telephone at her home is the producer of the Messianic Vision Radio Broadcast Janie DuVall. I wanted to bring you in on a little discussion we had just before we did this interview with Dr. Tedd Tripp about his book entitled “Shepherding a Child’s Heart.” And Janie I said to you that this is not from a Spirit Filled approach there’s no physical healings, there’s no encounters with Jesus, there’s no people going to heaven. And as a matter of fact, I mean I can’t get enough of the things of the Spirit so maybe we should scrap this interview and what did you say?
Janie: Well you know the thing is I want the same thing you do; I want to see miracles, I want to see people raised from the dead, I love interviewing people on that you interview people on that but I want my children to see that too, but the thing is sometimes in the Charismatic circles we’re just…we’re not realizing that there’s some practical and scriptural ways that we have to train our children and teenagers so they will see these things.
Sid: Okay look you read this book “Shepherding a Child’s Heart” were there things your personally doing wrong that you got checked on so to speak when you read this book?
Janie: Oh you had to ask (Laughing). Why do you want the list?
Sid: No just one.
Janie: Oh boy “Well, I hate to say it but sometimes I was putting guilt on my children and…by just the things that I would say to try to get them to do what I wanted them to do, I mean that’s really manipulation. And he had the whole thing with this book is about the attitude of the heart. So it wasn’t only my children’s heart but it was checking my heart; he talks about things that are very scriptural. A lot coming from the book of Proverbs and it’s really on wisdom.
Sid: Yeah but you’ve read lots I think you’ve probably read every book on children knowing you, so who needs another book on shepherding children?
Janie: Yeah but you know I want my children…I don’t want them just to look pretty and look nice and that’s the thing a lot of parents are making sure their children behave right or have the right education but we’re really not checking their heart so how could we really expect them to be on fire for the Lord if their heart is not right but they’re looking good on the outside? And that’s what’s different about this book.
Sid: Well you know a thought that’s coming to me Janie as we’re discussing this is as you know I talk a great deal about the One New Man the Jew and the Christians coming together as One New Man in Yeshua, in Jesus. But you know even before that’s going to happen we’ve got to come together as a body. And the charismatic need the fundamentalists and the fundamentalists need the charismatics and we need, we all need Yeshua the King of the Jews. Thanks Janie.
Janie: Thank you.
Sid: I have on the telephone Dr. Ted Tripp he’s Senior Pastor of Grace Fellowship Church in Hazelton, Pennsylvania. Recently we got a hold of his book “Shepherding the Child’s Heart.” And Ted I’ve been going round and round with the producer of my radio broadcast whether we should interview you or not it’s different than what we normally talk about on this broadcast. But the consensus is that we should do this. So for starters tell me what you mean by the title “Shepherding a Child’s Heart?”
Tedd: Well the title really is taken from the scripture Proverbs chapter 4 says “Above all else guard your heart for the heart is a wellspring of life.” We live out of our heart and it’s out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. And many times parent’s can get focused on changed behavior and there’s many things people can do to change behavior. But really in a Biblical vision what we’re trying to produce is a change in the heart. Let me give you an illustration. I observed a lady one day in the airport she had a four year old daughter who was very demanding and petulant and the child was wanting this and that from her mother and the mother was clearly exasperated. I was watching carefully from behind my newspaper to see how this mother was going to respond. And all at once she pulled this amazing power play on this child. She turned on this child she said “I’ve had it with you I’m sick of being your mother I don’t want to be your mother any more I quit go find someone else to be your mother and she gather all of her things together and she went and sat at the far end at the gate. And this little girl looked around at all of these adults and the only person she knew there was mother and so she went over and tried to make peace with mother. “I’m sorry mommy.” “Go away I don’t know you who child are you?” I’m sorry mommy, go away I’m going to call the police leave me alone.” And it was at that point that my flight was called and I left that area. But it was a powerful illustration of attempt on the part of a parent to try to change behavior. Now it’s one of those illustrations that leaves a knot in your stomach because you wonder if the cure was not worse than the disease. But the fact is this mother was trying to manipulate the behavior of the child and she was successful at it. She pulled a power play that got the behavior that she wanted she got a compliant child in the bargain but of course at a very great cost in terms of relationship with that child.
Sid: Now I can see how a non-Christian would use a technique like that to be candid with you I got saved when I was 30 years of age and in my family they used that kind of manipulation on me and far grosser than your little illustration. But do Christian families use that same type of manipulation?
Tedd: Sure I think Christian families do all sorts of things to control and constrain behavior. They might use bribery, “Let’s see you’ve got 15 stickers if you get 5 more stickers we’re going to ice cream.” Or they might appeal to their children emotionally “It just makes me so sad when I see the way you fight over your toys. I’ve no joy in my life I thought having children would be wonderful I had no idea what it would be like.” And they’re trying to manipulate the child emotionally or they might even bring Jesus in to the picture. You know Jesus can see right through the roof into the family room what do you think Jesus thinks of what’s going on here? That’s not a bad question if asked for the proper reason but sometimes that question can be raised with no true evangelical purpose of all the only purpose is Jesus is the heavy artillery and I’m trying to produce change in the child’s behavior at this moment and Jesus is the tool of manipulation. Or the parents might threaten their children “You don’t even want to know what will happen if I come up those stairs one more time but it’ll be messy it might be on the news,” you know and they’re threatening the children. There are just a whole range of ways that people try to control and constrain behavior. In my point in the book “Shepherding the Child’s Heart” is that all of those efforts misfire because they don’t address the wellspring of life. The wellspring of life is the heart.
Sid: You know I have to believe that a whole lot of books that Christian parents read that are more psychology then biblical and even many that are biblical don’t address the real thing that parents are to address the heart of the child. I’m a grandfather and so it’s not totally relevant to me but boy I wish I had this when my daughter was young. You give an example in your book that in many examples of things I find fascinating even though I’m a grandfather you have an example of two children fighting over toys I mean yeah that happens all the time. And most parents the first thing they ask is “Well who had it first?” Because in the sense of fairness but why is that wrong?
Tedd: Well I think that “Who had it first” really misses the issue because who had it first that makes it an issue simply of justice or supposed justice at that moment who had it first at that moment had the right to keep. But the fact is 2 children fighting over the toy I’ve got 2 selfish children on my hand; the one child seeing his brother or sister is enjoying the toy ought to say “You go ahead and play with it I wouldn’t think of taking it from you’re enjoying it I’ll play with something else.” The other one seeing his brother or sister would enjoy the toy if he’s going to truly love others before himself ought to say “You go ahead and play with it you would enjoy it I’ll play with something else.” You see I don’t just have a victim and a perpetrator I’ve got 2 selfish children on my hands, I’ve got 2 children who are both self-centered and their both concerned with themselves and their own issues and their own delights. At this moment they feel that they would be delighted by having the toy that the other child has and when we address it simply by giving the toy to the child who had the good fortune or speed to get the toy first we really miss the opportunity to address the heart.
Sid: We’re training them to do what the world does and that is me first.
Tedd: Exactly that is exactly right we’re training them in wrong ways in fact I would even take that another step further then and make this argument that whatever constrains behavior trains the heart. Behavior or the heart is trained by whatever constrains behavior. So for example when parents manipulate their children with shame many of us as adults are people who struggle with shame in our adult lives because we’re manipulated with shame as children. Or we’re manipulated with fear of man “What would people think?” And we struggle with the fear of man as adults, or we’re manipulated with guilt and we’re the kind of people that feel guilty even when we haven’t sinned against somebody we’ve know we’ve disappointed their expectations we feel guilty. And those very things that are used to manipulate our behavior ultimately train our heart and we end up reflecting those things in our adult life.
Sid: Ted let me ask you a bottom line question you have children how’d you’re children turn out?
Tedd: (Laughing) Well I have….
Sid: Tell me what the 3 are doing right now?
Tedd: I have 3 children now one is a contractor and he has a wife and 3 kids. I have a son who is a currently managing Shepherd Press the publisher of “Shepherding a Child’s Heart.” He really had ambitions of going to graduate school and he would like to be a professor he loves the Lord and all of our children are truly seeking God and love God. And I have a daughter who is a school teacher she’s married and has no children she’s just been married for years and she teaches school she particularly specializes in children of learning disabilities.
Sid: Do they all love the Lord?
Tedd: Yes they do, they do but you know what…
Sid: You know what we’re out of time….
Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Dr. Mark Gabriel, that is not his real name. I’m speaking to him in a city in Florida. Let me tell you Mark’s background and maybe you’ll understand why we’re doing this. He was a professor of Islamic history of the most prestigious Islamic university in the world. He not only has a Master’s but he has a Doctorate Degree in Islamic Studies. He is a man that was raised to even be an Imam in a mosque in Egypt. He had as a professor at one of the universities a man that is in prison in the United States he is that blind cleric that you’re probably familiar with that masterminded the first World Trade Center attack. He had some interesting things to say about this man, and it’s really giving me a lot of insight. I just want you to know… you know Dr. Mark and myself are just having a conversation, you just eavesdrop and just pray that the Lord would give me the wisdom to ask the questions you want to ask. On yesterday’s broadcast I couldn’t help remarking that the same thing that happened to Mohammed when he started out loving the Jewish people and when he found out the Jewish people and the Christians rejected his religion that love turned to hate, and he had many hateful writings. That’s why there seems to be such a contradiction in the Quran. It’s one group of writings you could say Islam is peace loving, and another group of writings in the same book it’s hateful. So that counts for it but it’s so similar what happened in Christianity. Many of the church fathers read the scriptures like we have today and saw God’s love for the Jewish people, saw that God wanted Jewish people to become believers in the Messiah, and as a result reached out to the Jewish community and when the Jewish community, and they should have read in Romans where it says there’s spiritual scales on the eyes of Jewish people. When the Jewish people were doing exactly what God said was going to happen, their love turned to hate. That wasn’t God’s love because God’s love never turns to hate God is love, but man’s love when rejected turns to hate. That’s what happened to Mohammed, that’s what happened to Martin Luther. The Encyclopedia Judaica said “The whole plan of Hitler short of the gas chamber itself was outlined in sermons by Martin Luther, so it’s very similar. You wanted to comment on that Dr. Mark Gabriel?
Mark: You see I would like to say to you the reason why I do hate religion, why I do not have no respect for religion, or the spirit of religion because the reason of that spirit, what this spirit did during the history is specific to the Jewish community; even in the Middle East or even in the West. In the Middle East it’s done by the spirit of religion of Isalm, and in the West itwas done by spirit of religion of Christianity. I just wanted to say to you I was in Johannesburg in South Africa and I had debate, I had the debate with a Muslim scholar his name was Dr. Doy. He’s the president of the Islamic department in Rau University in Johannesburg. One of his questions asked me of the reasons why I convert from Islam and I become a Christian? So one of these reasons I told him because I was sure and I had seen in the history of Islam to me it was like an ocean of blood. When Muslims they stop killing and fighting, the non-Muslim they tend to each other and killing each other, so he reminds that “But the history of the Christianity it wasn’t more beautiful than the Islamic history. There is bloodshed there…” So I…
Sid: By the way I have heard on secular news programs where they talk about Islam. That’s what they bring up. They say “Listen I can pull scripture out of context from the Christian Bible and from the Jewish scriptures and show the violence of God.” So that’s the argument that they use, what would you say to that?
Mark: I said to him “You see I’m not going to judge Muslims by what they did during the history, or judging Christians by what they did during the history. I’m going to judge Islam by what the scriptures of Islam teach and said, and I’m going to judge Christians by what the Bible said.” I told him “I challenge you if you can just bring up one single verse in the New Testament that explains Jesus Christ was commanding his disciples to go and to kill and to fight in the name of Christ. But at the same time I can take you back to the Quran and I will show you that the whole chapter in the Quran, the title of the chapter ‘The Spoils of War,’ and another chapter titled it’s called ‘The Fighting.’” So I told him that Quran does teach and command to go and to kill and to die and to fight in the name of Allah, but Jesus Christ He wasn’t did something like that at all. You will find no one single verse in the Bible you see that tells us Jesus He command His disciples. So I told him “Man… The heart of man is almost deceitful. Man without the Spirit of God and the love of God he will be the most worst and the most aggressive person in the world.” So this is why I do believe that Quran it wasn’t really the word of God because of the way he teach about hatred, about killing, about destroying, and this was what the Bible tells me that this is the reason for the false prophet, this is the fruit of the false prophets.
Sid: Let me ask you a question Dr. Mark Gabriel. What is, and this I believe we must know, what is the ultimate goal of Islam?
Mark: The ultimate goal of Islam that… Mohammed when he came he explained that he didn’t present a new religion to the world. He is the final prophet of the prophets that was sent by God. He came with the final revelation with the final testament. He said in “The entire world must submit to that revelation.” And he said “The ultimate of Quran is to see the world submitted to the revelation of Islam, practicing Islam, converted to Islam.” This is the why Islamic law gives 3 options to the people who didn’t convert to Islam. Islam gives 3 options for the Muslim state to take it outside the Islamic world to the non-Muslims and to say to them:
- “Okay we present this Islamic religion for you. On the same conversion are you going to believe?” If the person converts to Islam he will be Muslim, he will be free, he will be okay.
- “But if you, as a Jew, you refuse to become a Muslim, the second requirement you have to pay or choice, you have to pay tax, then we can let you to practice your religion and to be alone with yourself and your religion.”
- “But if you’re going refuse to pay a tax to the Islamic state you will be killed.”
Sid: What if you happen to be Jewish or Christian and you proselytize, you tell people about Jesus, or you tell people about Judaism, what would happen to you in a Muslim country?
Mark: Yeah this is a very good question. In Islamic country the entire world heard about this Edward who was caught in Afghanistan who was captured by Taliban. They choose by Taliban government that they are preaching the gospel in Afghanistan. They was also arrested almost 15 or 16, I forgot who was accepted Jesus by the mission of this workers there. However, it was 2 American ladies with this group there. Edward was watching why these people captured, why these people put into prison, why these people going to be judged by the Islamic court there in Kabul. You see according to the Islamic law a Christian or Jews they are not allowed to preach their religion in the Islamic land, or the Islamic world. If they going to catch they will be killed.
Sid: Does the Quran permit Muslims to lie?
Mark: Yes the Quran does command Muslims to lie in specific circumstances. Also the Hadith because there are 2 sources for the Muslims believe which means the Quran and the Hadith. The Quran is the word of Allah, the God of Islam who was revealed by the angel Gabriel to Mohammed, and the Hadith is the books record what Mohammed said and what he did in his life. So the Quran and the Hadith both they require and they command Muslims to lie in specific circumstances. Like in the war a Muslim can lie to the non-Muslims, like if a Muslim living in a foreign country and it’s not run by Islamic law he can lie if that lie can help him to avoid persecution…
Sid: Let me ask you another question. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a loving Father. Is there any description of Allah being a loving father in the Quran?
Mark: This is very hard to find something like that in the Quran. Only you can find the Quran use the word of love, or loving when the Quran speaks about the Muslims he’s going to the war to fight for the cause of Allah. Like many verses says (speaking in Arabic) “Allah he loves the people who go and fight for his cause.”
Mark: Many verses describe that and use the word loving.
Sid: Well we’re out of time right now.