Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Dr. Michael Brown President of Fire School Ministry in Pensacola, Florida and New York City, and in the fall the Pensacola School will move to Charlotte, North Carolina. I’m interviewing him this week on his book that is sure to stir up a lot of controversy and I believe that he didn’t write it for that sake he wrote it because this is what the Spirit of God is speaking to many people, but not many people are willing to be up front with this because when you’re up front sometimes you’re standing alone. The title of the book is “Revolution in the Church” subtitle “Challenging the Religious System with a Call for Radical Change.” What do you mean by radical change do you mean scrap what we have and start over?
Michael: I mean radical in two ways radical meaning large scale wholesale dramatic conflict and radical meaning back to the roots biblical. And what we’re doing if we’re following some map somewhere and the map doesn’t have any of the latest roads and it got us down the wrong way because the map is 30 years outdated well the things you do is to get yourself a new map and then if your “Oops I made some wrong turns I’m 50 miles out of the way.” You don’t keep going the wrong way you make a U-turn you go back and get things fixed. I’m not talking about reinventing the wheel, I’m not talking about scraping everything that’s gone before, I’m saying let’s be honest we’ve got some blind spots here. We’ve got some very serious lax there’s a reason why we’ve got 24 hour gospel television, 24 hour gospel radio, best selling Christian books, mega churches all around the country, well known Christian leaders in every facet of society and yet America continues to have a steady moral decline. Things that are acceptable in the homes of believers today would have been absolute abominations in the homes of our unsaved grandparents 2 generations ago, something is fundamentally wrong not just with our message but with our understanding of what church is and what it means and what it means to be a follower of Jesus.
Sid: And your book by the way explains things that unfortunately too few Christians understand. For instance, let’s talk a little bit about chapter 3 and the next few chapters, “The Church is Not a Building and the Family is not a House” explain that.
Michael: Well I use those terms “The Family is not a House” to try to draw people with the wrong terminology there. If I said “I want you to meet my family” and then I come and show you my house, I show you the yard and show you the…
Sid: I want to meet your family not your building.
Michael: Right because families are moms and dads, and sons and daughters, and brothers and sisters. Well… “Oh Sid we’ve got a beautiful new church, oh Sid we moved into the area so that we could be near the church, oh I go to church regularly.” See if the church is a building then it’s something I go to…
Sid: How about this the church is the house of God.
Michael: Well if I look at a physical building somehow it’s the house of God. See here’s the problem when Tyndale translated the Bible into English 500 years ago and he translated the New Testament into English and he came to the word ekklesia in Greek he properly translated it congregation. Jesus said “I’ll build my congregation. Jesus died for glorious congregation without spot and wrinkle.” What happened is the King James translated it’s one of the rules was use the all ecclesiastical words like church instead of congregation. And so now you have this misnomer that church can actually refer to a physical building as well. And as long as we have that mentality “I go to church.” As opposed “I am part of the church 24-7, we are the body, we are the congregation.” What happens is the major focus is going to be on a physical building and that we should meet together we should have meetings where we all come together as often as we can in small groups in homes and private fellowships and large corporate meetings I’m all for that I see it as the New Testament pattern. But we might say “We have a beautiful church” meaning we have a lovely building and it’s filled with dead men’s bones on the inside and society the world is not changed by someone going to church. We somehow think we get all dressed up or we come casual whatever the look is. We go to some building we sing a few songs, we collect an offering we preach a message we hear a message we go home we think that’s going to threaten the devil. That doesn’t threaten the devil in fact if we’re happy he’s happy because we’re now pacified with our religious fix. But if we see ourselves instead of the emphasis going to a meeting we see that we part of a revolutionary world changing movement that was birthed into this world by the Son of God. And we have a mission to go and change the world everything changes. And…
Sid: But in America and as you so well point out in your book it’s the whole professional and audience mentality versus everyman a worker.
Michael: You see here’s where we miss it so greatly the civil rights movement had a great impact on America and brought about a lot of positive change because people did not merely go to a civil rights meeting they became part of a movement and they all went out and got involved. Or if you look at something that’s brought negative change for America there’s more freedom right now in your average secular high school for a homosexual to freely speak. A homosexual teacher about his or her views on homosexuality and things like that than there is for an evangelical believer to talk about God and the scriptures. How is it that there is more freedom of speech for homosexuals than for Christians true believers in our schools? The answers very simple Homosexuals who we pray for and want to see saved and made whole and made right by God the homosexuals do not go to a gay meeting one hour a week, they are not gay one hour a week they lead a gay lifestyle. And because of that even though they are a tiny percent of the society they have great impact. Here in America half of American’s attend church services at least once a month. A third go to a religious services once a week and yet we’re not changing America, America is changing us. Why? Because we have this mentality that the church is a building that I go to and I put my money into it and if we can build a nice enough building then somehow we’re doing something for God or we’ve accomplished something we’ve arrived. And then in that setting I go and I’m now part let’s say I’m not in leadership I’m now part of the audience. I’ve heard preachers say this from the pulpit many times well meaning “All of you out there in the audience.” Well if there’s the audience then the one preaching the leader that’s the performer. So I perform I put on a good show, you go there you like the show you give some money you know and you got it…well I like the show better over there because they let you out early yeah, but the childcare over here’s better and yeah but there’s no parking and we’re kind of like we’re choosing which restaurant connoisseur Christians in a gourmet gospel. And we wonder why things are not being changed when the fact is audiences don’t change the world, audiences don’t start revolutions, audiences are not a threat to the devil. About the best you can get from an audience is active audience participation. God puts leaders in the body and leaders have important roles but there’s no clergy, laity distinction.
Sid: Well where did that come from?
Michael: Well that’s just a latter tradition and in this case Gentile tradition that came in, Jewish tradition went one way Gentile tradition went another way both in many ways departed from scripture.
Sid: So what was the what was the scriptural tradition?
Michael: The scripture tradition is that every believer is a priest. See the reformation addressed this but then it really didn’t live it out because he he’s still going to a building and the people walk up like 10 – 20 feet to this high lofty pulpit and have special titles and have these long robes. Well hang on, if they’re wearing robes how come everybody’s not wearing robes if we’re all priests where nobody should be wearing them. In other words we all have equal access to God, we are all equally part of the body we are all equally…
Sid: Yes but they have time to study and keep themselves sanctified where were working, we’re parents, we’re husbands or wives, we’re trying to get enough money so that we can retire. We don’t have time for things like this Mike it’s a busy life.
Michael: Well see there are two sides to this. First leaders that are called to the ministry of the word ought to spend a lot of time in prayer and in the word so that they can equip God’s people with the time they’ve had with God to help them teach and instruct so that God’s people can now go out and do God’s work. It’s not the role of the pastor…
Sid: Can’t I just give money to someone and then I don’t have to do God’s work?
Michael: Well not according to the scripture (Laughing) you see everyone is called to be a disciple. See just say “I am a Christian” doesn’t cut it. Saying I am a believer that term occurs 26 times in the New Testament 13 times in Acts we’re called Believers. That’s good but if I tell someone on my job I’m a believer they might say “Oh yeah I am too I call the psychic hotline every day I’m a real believer.” So the word that separates us and it’s a very costly word it’s the word disciple every one of us is called to be a disciple of Jesus. That word…
Sid: I know the disciple of Jesus would ever call something that the scriptures condemn like a psychic hotline but go ahead.
Michael: Well you see we are called disciples in the New Testament that term occurs over 250 times. Over 25 times just in Acts we are called disciples, people should look in the mirror and say “I’m a disciple of Jesus.” What does that mean? I wonder if the mirror would talk back to us and say “Who are you fooling?” See if we’re disciples of Jesus then we have the same radical call that Peter and Matthew and the others did. No not be apostles, no not to write part of the New Testament but we are called in the same way to leave everything and join this radical revolutionary cause. And so much of our America gospel that just says “Well, what’s in it for you, or how you can just have a better life, or Jesus died to make you rich?” It’s not that every line of that is wrong and heretical, but the focus is wrong and heretical.
Sid: What’s the focus?
Michael: The focus is not how to save your life and how to have a better more prosperous life. The focus is how to give your life to go and change the world that’s the revolutionary calling of Jesus, that’s the normal New Testament faith. And what the world calls for fanaticism and much of the church calls extremism God calls normal. We need to get back to the understanding of the church being the family of God sent out into this world to make it an impact. Every believer is a priest and has access to God and that leaders are to be honored and appreciated and respected, but leaders do not stand over the believer between them and God as if they have access to God that believers don’t. Believers lead the way to lead the believers out to war to go out and change the world that is our revolutionary commission.
Sid: Mike we’re out of time.
Sid: I mean just out of the blue as Don refers to it. What happens when an unexpected cross occurs? I mean the couple’s happy, they’re having their new baby and then a 1 in a million chance occurs. One of the lungs is missing and the heart ends up in that position rather than the normal position; they give him days and the baby will die. The family goes into the audacity of prayer that’s the name of the book that we’re making available and when they prayed and this was your church family Don correct.
Don: That’s right.
Sid: And when they prayed you just had a knowing that this baby was healed and just on his own suddenly they could take him home totally healed, no surgery. What did the doctors say?
Don: When in 48 hours this baby went from the death watch to being home. No surgery, medical science didn’t make him well, God turned his situation around.
Sid: You know people are listening to us and if you’re human something unexpected happens to a love one or to you, it’s called life. What should someone do when they have this unexpected cross Don?
Don: I believe that when you have an unexpected cross in your life and an unexpected cross can be almost anything a financial reversal, bad news from a doctor, the breakup of a marriage, you know almost anything it could be almost anything. But when we face an unexpected cross and all of us have been there I believe that it’s at that moment that we discover what we really believe and who we’re really trusting in. And I think that when we face these unexpected crosses that our first thing that we should do is to run to Father God and take our case to Him and do it in a way that we have confidence that He hears us when we pray.
Sid: I want you to give me an example give me a real life example of either your family or one of your church families and how you did or would pray and I want you to actually pray.
Don: Okay I… just a personal example of an unexpected cross for years I struggled with a heart issue; had atrial fibrillation and I was on a 30 day fast, drinking only water. And was in a hotel room I was speaking at a church and got up to take a shower one morning and you know in a weakened condition as far as physically because it was the 11th day of the fast and when I was taking the shower my heart went out of rhythm so badly that I fell in the shower I was the only one my wife wasn’t with me. And when I fell in the shower I experienced a demon that came in that bathroom and that demon told me “I’m going to kill you today and nobody is even going to know that you’re dead until church time.”
Sid: Now did you…do you think that that demon that communicated with you at that moment was the one that caused the afib?
Don: You know I think that it could have been I know that physically I was in a weakened condition because I hadn’t been eating and only drinking water and so my body was already struggling. You know if you fast at lengthy times you know that there are periods during that fast that your body just almost is screaming at you and it was at that… it was one of those moments. But…
Sid: So when you heard that obviously the demon was smart enough to say it to you as though it was your own thoughts or did you realize that it was an external voice?
Don: No I knew that it wasn’t my own thoughts I knew that it was an external voice. I have to admit to you even though I had been preaching and pasturing and being a guest speaker for years and years and years and really believed in the supernatural and the miraculous the first emotion that I felt was fear. Because I had a wife and 2 young children at the time and then of course I want to stay with my family and raise my family and the first thing was fear. Then I couldn’t even get up, I’d fallen and I couldn’t even get up I was too weak. And I finally it just…I guess my faith just kicked in and so I just said out loud I said “Devil if you think that you can kill me then go ahead but I don’t believe that you have that authority in my life; I believe that my expiration date is up to a higher power, but I’ll tell you this if you let me live till church time I am going to preach tonight.” And immediately I gained enough strength to get up and get dress and lay down on the bed but I was in weakened condition all day long. And that night I spoke just hanging on to the pulpit to stand up. Went back to my hotel room and called my wife and she prayed with me and when I woke up the next morning I woke up with my heart in rhythm, I was strong, I felt that I had sat down to a banquet table because I had supernatural strength. But an unexpected cross when it hits you tries to take your legs out from under you but that’s when your faith has to kick into action.
Sid: You know as your sharing that you did what you teach in your book. I mean it would have been so easy for you to check yourself into a hospital rather than preaching that night.
Don: That’s exactly right and immediately I thought I should call 911 but I recognized that what I was dealing with was a spiritual thing even more than a physical thing. And honestly behind every unexpected cross there’s a spiritual battle that’s going on we may see it as a financial reversal, as a negative report from a doctor, a counselor whoever the banker, but there’s a spiritual thing behind it. And for every unexpected cross there’s a demonic intention of trying to keep us from being people of faith.
Sid: Okay what about someone like W.A. Berg he gets leukemia, a member of his family had had that same type of leukemia and died. He gets the same symptoms and what does he do is it diagnosed when he recognizes that he has all the symptoms of this unusual form of leukemia?
Don: Yes when he experienced those same symptoms when he went to the hospital in Memphis, Tennessee they came back with the same diagnosis as one of his family members had passed away with. But I knew W.A. Berg for many years he’s an older minister and of course he was much younger when that happened. And I only met 2 people in my life that I thought had as much faith as W.A. Berg and one of them is my father. And he was a man of great faith and I believe that Pastor Berg decided in that hospital room that my life is not over I haven’t accomplished what God wanted me to accomplish he was in the process of planning a church in Marked Tree, Arkansas and he knew that he had an assignment from the Lord and he decided that he wasn’t going to let the devil kill him.
Sid: Tell me about the prayer that went on for him.
Don: Oh there was amazing prayer that went up for him churches in several surrounding states were having special prayer meetings for his healing. And somebody prayed the prayer of faith because God completely healed him of that leukemia therapy, without any chemotherapy, without any of that he walked out of that hospital and preached for 50 more years. He is recently passed away, but he preached for 50 more years and was never affected with that disease ever again.
Sid: And he held on to a scripture when he was fighting for his life Psalm 91. What verse did he hold on to?
Don: Psalm 91 it was where he stood on the scripture and I mean he clung to that scripture for his healing and God honored His word and God will always honor His word.
Sid: Don I understand that you work very strong with words of knowledge and words of wisdom but you actually operate in all 9 gifts of the Spirit and before you went on the air this day God spoke to you about a subject you mention in your brand new book about “Do you want your stuff back?” What did God want you tell people?
Don: What God wanted me to say to the listeners is that you can have your stuff back, the stuff the devil has stolen from you, the stuff that you have willingly given up yourself that God wants you to have that back. And I believe that He wants you to have it back sooner than later.
Sid: Give me an example of someone that… well give me an example in the Bible and example in real life.
Don: Well an example in real life is a young man in our church Clint Mayfield at the time who was 26 years old, married settled into a wonderful life and job with his family, he worked for an aviation company in Pasadena, Texas. He was involved in our church played in the band and but he was a motorcycle enthusiast he loved motorcycles. And he was out riding with some friends and he had ridden for half of the day. In Texas summer time heat can be pretty intense and so after lunch he had stopped and taken off some of the equipment that he rode with which was on a metal plated riding jacket that he had on, he took that off and some other things and put them in his backpack that he had on. And so when he put that in there took off down the road got up to highway speed or probably faster somehow one of the straps from the backpack had gotten down into the spokes of the motorcycle and got into the wheel and locked the wheel of the motorcycle. The motorcycle skidded for about a football field, length of a football field. The tire blew out and cleared over the handlebars and into the air and he hit the concrete highway really hard right on his back and then just slid down the road on his back. And I received a call from his family saying that he’d been in a motorcycle accident and I didn’t know how bad his injuries were, but immediately my wife and I got into our vehicle and started our journey to the trauma unit that he was in, he had been airlifted I knew that. And on my way to the hospital Susan and I were praying interceding for Clint and his family and the Lord spoke to me and said “When you get to that hospital I want you tell Clint and his family that they are to pursue for they shall recover all.” And that’s what I had in my heart to tell them that Clint was going to recover all. And so I’m pretty excited about this word until I walk into the ICU unit and saw Clint’s condition. And of course just like with anybody else the enemy the first thing the enemy does is says “Look at this kids condition and you’re going to tell his family he’s going to recover all you’re really going out on a limb herE.”
Sid: Now what was wrong with him at the time?
Don: He was…he had spinal injuries, he had road rash from his head to his toes, he had all kinds of internal injuries.
Sid: Was he conscious?
Don: No he was comatose.
Don: And the doctors that came in described his condition as “Hopeless” that was the word that they used “It’s hopeless.” In fact a couple in our church their son is a doctor at that trauma hospital and they had called their son and asked him what Clint’s condition really was and he told them “There was no chance of his survival; absolutely no chance.” And so I had the word to tell him “You shall recover all.”
Sid: Yeah but if he’s comatose how you going to tell him that (Laughing)?
Don: (Laughing) I have to admit to you that I struggled with it for several minutes but I knew what I heard. And so finally I thought you know I’m going to put myself and God on the line here I just told him before we prayed I said you know I related to them the story of David, King David before he was King with his men in Ziklag the he had left town before his men and while he was gone some Egyptians came in and burned the city and stole all of their stuff including their wives and children. And when David found and came home and found the city in flames and his wives and children gone and all of his stuff gone he prayed and asked the Lord “Should I pursue them or not?” And the Lord said “Pursue for you shall doubtless recover all.” And that was the scripture that the Lord spoke to me on the way to the hospital. And so I relayed that story before we prayed and I said “I know what it looks like I get that but I’m telling you that God said that Clint is going to recover all.”
Sid: And what happened?
Don: Well the doctors said “Even if he were to live that he would probably never ever be out of a bed that he would be bed ridden the rest of his life.” But within probably a week Clint starting making some progress for about a week I think it was about a week there was just a…
Sid: Did the doctors actually use the word that his progress was miraculous?
Don: The doctors actually used the words that it was miraculous.
Sid: You know most doctors even if it is won’t say that. (Laughing)
Don: Right, right. Well you would have just had to been there and seen Clint’s condition initially. (Laughing) I mean one look at him and the natural mind just says “Oh this is over right here this is not going to be good.” But within a week he started making progress and over a period of probably 3 or 4 months he steadily made progress. It was difficult but he made the progress you know he was in the aviation business he’s the guy that plans flights for private jets, and so you know… And today he’s back at his job planning flights for private jets and when you’ve had that kind of a head injury you know the chances of ever being what you were before are slim to none as far as the world is concerned, but he’s back at his job doing well. In fact I have to tell you that I like the Clint that we have now better than the one we had before.
Sid: Why is that?
Don: Because his personality I think is better, certainly his heart for God has greatly improved and he’s just a delightful young man.
Sid: Now you told me God wants the people listening to us to recognize how important it is to be grateful.
Don: I just think that…
Sid: And by the way when you’re talking about Clint I think the thing that made the difference is Clint is one grateful man.
Don: Oh you couldn’t ask for a more grateful man than Clint is or his wife or his parents. They recognize that Clint’s life has always been a gift from God but certainly now even more a gift from God and they’re grateful. And I just think, I just thing that gratitude is golden to God and I think the scriptural proof of that is that 10 lepers that were cleansed all 10 were cleansed but one came back and gave thanks. The Bible specifically says that that leper was made whole and so gratitude is so important.
Sid: But so important so even gratitude before you have something to be grateful for isn’t that faith really faith to have an attitude of gratitude when things seem to be going bad.
Don: Exactly that’s an act of faith to be able to be grateful when things are not good is an act of faith in itself and that’s what God responds to faith.
Sid: You know I have to tell you this story Don. Wherever I go people say they’re trained because they’re in retail business “How you doing?” And I know that it’s cosmetic and I know that they don’t care how I’m really doing they just want to make their sale and I say “I am extremely blessed, I’m extraordinarily blessed.” And many times I’ll say it exactly the way I just did and sometimes I’m going through an awful day and I grit my teeth and I say it any way. And guess what it’s like a magnet I walk in such favor and I believe it’s because I walk in an attitude of gratitude.
Don: I agree with that and you know the thing is that life and death is in the power of the tongue and I think we curse ourselves many times before we have the opportunity to be blessed.
Sid: Don these miracles that you have medically documented in your brand new book I am so excited about them and one of the miracles is a man that I personally know. Actually his doctor is Dr. Remidios and tell me about that miracle.
Don: That miracle was Dee Sapp she is married to the Pastor by the name of Gary Sapp and she had been diagnosed with colon cancer. It was an emergency situation rushed to the hospital and Dr. Remidios was the surgeon that saw her and they did emergency surgery right away and she had a tumor in her colon and they had to take out a large portion of her intestine. And when Dr. Remidios was doing the surgery, by his own words the Holy Spirit began to show him what he was to do. So he actually stretched, this is a procedure that had never been done before and he just did this at the bidding of the Holy Spirit, he stretched that, he stretched the colon and sewed it into place. And he felt that the Holy Spirit told him if he would do that the colon would work and she wouldn’t have to have a colostomy. And of course…
Sid: And you have to recognize how bold this was by the doctor. This was a procedure that had never been done before therefore he couldn’t possibly know whether it would work out or not but he heard from God and he took this step of boldness so as a result what happened Don?
Don: Well the procedure that he performed on her if it didn’t work he would lose her life.
Sid: Now that’s bold!
Don: He would lose his license.
Don: And he stretched that colon and sewed it into place and within a few days the colon was working perfectly and that’s been a number of years ago and she still functioning properly. She and her husband travel all over the world preaching, in fact it’s been 18 years ago.
Sid: Now you told me he cut three feet of the colon out but then he did something that just sounds so amazing he stretched the remaining 3 feet is that what you said?
Don: That’s right he cut 3 feet out and he took the remaining part of the colon and stretched it.
Sid: Now what would you do? What would I do if you were do doctors; God said for us to do something and it could cost the patient their life because it had never been done before. Now that’s my kind of surgeon.
Don: Exactly yes if I have to have surgery that’s the kind of doctor I want working on me.
Sid: Okay I’m looking at this documentation you have tell me about the twins.
Don: The twins belong to Isaiah and Evangelina Garza and they’re from our church and…
Sid: You must have a lot of miracles in your church, do you?
Don: We have a lot of miracles in our church yes we do. In fact I preached a sermon recently that I titled “Tell of His marvelous Deeds.” And I talked about all of the miracles in the Old Testament, all of the miracle in the New Testament; all of the miracles that Jesus did I just hit the high points of it. And then what the Holy Spirit told me was all the miracles in the book of Acts and then I had everybody stand in our church that had a recent miracle that could describe in one sentence or so and we couldn’t even get to all of them there was over 100 people that stood. And we couldn’t even get to all of them and it dawned on me as they were giving their testimonies that there were more miracles in that house today than there were in the book of Acts. And you know there’s no ending to the book of Acts because it’s still being written.
Sid: So tell me about the twins.
Don: The twins at fourteen weeks of pregnancy they were diagnosed with twin to twin transfusion where the twins are transferring blood between them which cannot happen and if that happens at least one probably both of the twins will perish. So it’s a very serious thing and the doctors basically told Evangelina that she would have to abort one of the twins if not both of them and she refused to abort and make a decision on you know of aborting one of them. And eventually the condition got serious enough that the doctors basically told her either have an abortion on both of these children or we can no longer see you because you’re too much of a risk. And at that point Isaiah, Evangelina’s husband, took her by the hand and looked at the doctor and said “Doctor if God wants to kill our twins then He can do it but your not.” And yeah they walked out of the office and that Sunday night we were having a miracle healing service at our church and they came up for prayer. One of our ladies one of the lay members of our church a lady named Kim laid hands on them and prayed for them. And honestly I don’t think I ever made it to them that night there was so many people that had come for the miracle healing service for prayer. Kim prayed for them and she told them at the end of the prayer she said “I want you to go back to your seat and I want you write this date down because tonight this situation has been reversed.” And so they went and wrote and wore the date down and they went back to the doctor. And when they went back to the doctor they were doing the ultrasound and they said that the doctor started that ultrasound and he said “Unbelievable, unbelievable.” And…
Sid: It’s almost unbelievable to me that a doctor would say “Unbelievable” (Laughing).
Don: Well he’s the doctor that said “Have an abortion or I won’t be seeing you anymore.” And when he did this ultrasound he recognized that these twins had… were on the rebound had greatly improved. He was still doubtful that when they were born that they could be viable and live.
Sid: I actually have a quote by the doctor and this is what he said “There is no sign pointing to how this sickness began but there is evidence how it ended.” In other words the ultrasound showed him that everything was normal.
Don: Right well he… when the babies were born on February the 2nd of 2004 Isaiah had a video camera in the delivery room and whenever the babies were born they took them… they were born and then the doctor said “Bring that camera over here.” And he laid the placenta out on a table and started injecting it with milk and he said “This is amazing we don’t know how this started but there’s no doubt about how it ended.” And he said “It looks like skilled surgeon had gone in and severed all the places where the twin to twin transfusion was happening.” And I said that “The skilled surgeon did His name is Jesus.”
Sid: Hm. Tell me about another one very briefly though tell me about Mr. Thunderberg.
Don: John Thunderberg is a pastor in Murfreesboro, Arkansas. He was diagnosed with a usually fatal heart condition came on him with like 24 hours. And he was rushed to the hospital; by the time they figured out what was going on with him he was transported to Little Rock Hospital and he was put on the list for a heart transplant but his condition kept getting worse until the point that he could not have sustained a hearts transplant. He was in the hospital and he was retaining so much fluid that the fluid was going to kill him. And the doctor left on a Friday knowing that he couldn’t sustain a heart transplant and when the doctor came back on Monday the Lord had healed John. And from Friday to Monday John lost 48 pounds of excess fluid and the doctor could not believe it when he came into the room John’s room. They started running tests and within a couple of days John was at home. And John before had been on high blood pressure medication and today he don’t even take high blood pressure medication. The doctor said that “In all of his years of practice he had never seen a miracle but there was no doubt that John is a miracle.”
Sid: And by the way I have the doctor’s reports right in front of me. And you know this book of Don Nordin’s it’s just normal people like you and like me that have stepped into the audacity, the chutzpah, the fearless boldness of faith….
Sid: We want everyone that’s listening to us everywhere to receive physical healing and I pray in Yeshua, in Jesus’ mighty majestic, glorious, magnificent name that every disease especially cancer. My guest right here is David Piper and I’m speaking to him in the studio from Tifton, Georgia. And I believe Lord that you want healing to flow like a river and there’s someone’s neck if you’ll move your head you’ll see that that pain is gone it is gone. And there’s people with breathing difficulties you just take a deep breath and you’ll see those allergies are gone. I say they are gone in Yeshua’s name, in Yeshua’s name bless the Lord.
David: Amen. I feel that as you’re beginning to greet the people Sid I feel my hand beginning to burn like fire they’re starting to burn and that has been a sign that God has given me that a mighty healing anointing is beginning to fall a healing anointing is beginning to fall on my life right now. And I believe that it’s for the people that are listening.
Sid: Tell me a bit about healing what is your understanding about healing?
David: Well I understand that it’s not God’s will that we’re sick that God that He’s very clear in His word He said “It’s in His will that we’re in good health and that we prosper even as our soul prospers.” And I believe that God’s will is that walk in total health and that He’s Jesus is not coming after a defeated church He’s coming after a totally victorious church totally without spot of blemish. And I think that means diseases are completely gone. And God wants us to walk in health and I believe that it’s His will that we’re healed.
Sid: When you were 12 years of age you had a prophetic word what were you told?
David: I was told by an evangelist actually it was his wife that prophesied to me, that one day I would be doing exactly what I’m doing that God would use me in a ministry with signs and wonders and miracles and that there would be healings and I would be just like the apostle Paul. In which this prophetic word has come to past almost exactly as she said and then my upbringing.
Sid: But between age 12 and what age?
David: At 37.
Sid: Between age 12 and 37 you were as far away from God as a human could be.
David: Oh it was awful, really it was more between age 12 and 34 and 35 when it really started. Listen I was raised in church my grandma took care of me and raised me my dad remarried after my mother died and we were taken to church by my stepmom every time the doors opened you know. But there was a point where I became rebellious as a teenager and went away into the world and began to do things my own and for 17 years drug addiction and ended up in prison and a mental hospital, but one day all of a sudden I woke up in 1976 and I began to hear a prophetic word that was spoke over me when I was 12 and it began to ring in my ears. And you know God began to remind me of that word and I believe that the Holy Spirit is watering the seeds of greatness planted in the lives of great ones by grandma and grandpa and the preachers. I believe that God is speaking to the lost right now to the lost right now on the bed and the wayward sons and daughters of prodigal sons and daughters that went away from how they’ve been raised. And I believe the Holy Spirit today is speaking to those people watering that seed and that seed is beginning to sprout and the harvest is coming forth.
Sid: So talk to that grandma right now that’s been praying for her grandchild.
David: Grandma don’t give up I feel a lady standing right now in a kitchen and I see her standing right now in a yellowish dress on with flowers. And I want to tell you something don’t give up on your daughters, don’t give up on your son but I see the lady with a daughter and I see the daughter. And I see the daughter has been rebellious and you’ve tried over and over again and you’ve just exhausted all of your efforts and you just feel hopeless because nothing you seem to do she won’t even listen to you she’s rejecting everything you’re telling her about how she needs to straighten her life up. Don’t give up because the Lord says her salvation is done in Jesus name.
Sid: What’s it like for the close relative of a drug addict? What’s it like for the close relatives that see the child they love stealing to survive?
David: It’s a torment…you know the drug addict himself of course is affected by drug addiction but more people are indirectly affected the close relative that the many times and manipulation, the control all the things that happen to a drug addict that the people around them are just destroyed there’s so many casualties that are taken down by this drug addiction. You know that is the people that God wants to heal today, He wants to bring hope and encouragement to the grandmas, and the dads and moms that haven’t seen any change in the life of their children. I’m here to tell you when you raised the child up in the way he should go the Lord’s very clear that He will not depart from it. You can rest assured that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, them and their house.
Sid: I don’t understand exactly what’s going on in my life David but it seems as though prayers are being answered faster than ever before. It seems as though there’s almost a supernatural…
David: There’s a quickening there’s a very quickening.
Sid: That’s it.
David: There’s a quickening in the Spirit God is since we know that there’s very little time left, even the Bible says “The devil knows that his time is short.” And there’s a little time left and Jesus is getting ready to come back and God is bringing in the harvest and there’s a speeding up now in the Spirit realm. And even in my life all of a sudden like I said in ’96 the words of a prophet began to ring in my head that “One day you shall be as Paul; one day you shall lay hands on the sick.” And I would be in a crack house smoking crack and here these words it was driving me bananas. And all of a sudden one day my Grandma invites me to go to church with him again and low and behold it was the same evangelist that 22 years before had prophesied over me and they were back in town from Louisiana and I said “I’m going to go.” And they could not believe I was going and I went because I wanted some answers God had been slowly drawing me everyday back to Him. And I followed that evangelist to another church 3 days later and accepted Jesus as my Savior. Hallelujah!
Sid: And I’d like to think that everything happened wonderful after that but you weren’t discipled.
David: No unfortunately I took what is known today as a bad Christian bounce, a bad new believer bounce. Nobody came to disciple me and I believe that the biggest form of spiritual malpractice in the church today is when we as believers do not disciple baby Christians. Nobody came to tell me to read the word, to pray…
Sid: You know Billy Graham said the biggest regret looking back over his life is that he made converts and not disciples.
David: You know the Bible’s very clear that we are to go and make disciples and Jesus said “You didn’t choose Me I chose you that you should go forth bring forth fruit and your fruit should remain.” You know we need to be not only getting people saved but we need to be discipling them and getting them a solid foundation on the solid rock and not on sand. Jesus was clear to what will happen to you if your house is built on sand, on every storm that would come it will knock you down and that’s what was happening to me. And because well…before I was sinning successfully well I thought but everything seemed to be okay but once I accepted Jesus and the devil came to tempt me I had no foundation, my house was not built on a solid foundation the enemy his temptation was stronger than my relationship with Christ so I fell over and over again. And this time God began to disciple me you know; God’s got a big stick in heaven, He’s got love written on it and He brings it down and He begins to chastise us with love to whip us back into place where we should be. If He didn’t chastise us the Bible says we would not be sons.
Sid: How were you chastised?
David: Well I ended up in a mental hospital and prison a big stumbling block and ended up on 38 years probation facing, well what I thought was 21 months but the minute… 21 months in prison I thought I was facing but the minute I cried out to Jesus He never left me. He said “I will never ever no way, way leave you or forsake you.”
Sid: you told me when you were in jail there was only 1 Christian television show all of the inmates watch and tell me what happened about and what it was.
David: We would sit around and watch a show called “This is your day.” They would sit there and what really attracted these inmates was the miracles, they were attracted by the power of God and we would sit and watch this program 30 minutes a day every day in jail and we would watch as the presence of God would fill that building and the craziest inmates the most bound up devil possessed people that were in there for the most craziest crimes that you can think of would sit and cry for 30 minutes during this show watching the miracles.
Sid: And today after God has set you free you have a ministry to prisoners in fact you told me that all of a sudden out of nowhere people sent tracks for prisoners to you.
David: Oh yeah that’s how it started happening; when God delivered me in 1998 I came home and went back to work as normal working my job and all of a sudden I started meeting people and these people I would meet would end up sending me in the mail boxes of prison tracks saying they were praying and God told them to buy me prison tracks. And it was not even 30 days later that I received an invitation to minister in the jail and by the time this invitation came God had already supernaturally provided all of the material I needed to go to the jail ministry with, it was amazing.
Sid: Tell me about one jail you went to and what happened to the prisoners.
David: I went to a detention center in Ocilla, Georgia and where I had been told that it was impossible to minister to all of the young boys at one time. We had to take them in segments and so you can imagine if you were only allowed to go every other week how long it took to cover the entire place 300 some odd boys. They said that it was impossible to get them in the same room together. Well I said “Nothing is impossible with God and I prayed that God would do it and all of a sudden a memo came from Atlanta, Georgia gave them the money to remodel the building where they could get where they would have a church with all of the boys at one time. All of the young boys from ages 12…
Sid: Well they were remodeling not for church they were just remodeling or did they just remodel it for churches.
David: They got a memo from Atlanta for them to spend money on sound board in the gym.
Sid: What are soundboards?
David: Soundboard is for in a gym it cuts out an echo.
David: It’s where they could have church and all of the boys could come at one time. And I went in there and watch these kids ages 12 to 18 years old about 350 of them all of them gave their heart to Jesus at one service. Hallelujah!
Sid: God’s doing something in prisons and in jails today.
David: I believe people that are in prisons and in jails today are in there because they’ve got a call of God on their life and they’ve been running from God.
Sid: Is the best thing that ever happened to you in your life going to prison?
David: It was one of the most I got to say it was beneficial because it was a stumbling block that God allowed to come in my way to stop me dead in my tracks.
Sid: Or you would have been stopped dead in your tracks.
David: Oh no doubt.
Sid: Should you have died?
David: Should I have died? I was headed that way but…
Sid: Did you have any close calls?
David: I had very many close calls I remember one time very particularly when I was coming over a hill in my car and when I come around the curb another car turned in front of me and my car supernaturally went through the middle of that car. And it was like I was taken and…
Sid: It must have been grandma’s prayers. We’re out of time Mishpocha…
Sid: My guest Cherie Calbom and Cherie the last time you were on the show you caused a sensation. Do you remember the commercial we did with Juice Lady in the Box? Of course she’s affectionately known as the Juice Lady. For those that aren’t that familiar with her you had fibromyalgia you had several chronic fatigue syndromes there was no hope for you. The doctors pretty much gave up, but you did something that you were directed to by God that changed your life in a short period of time. Tell me your worst shape you were in and what happened?
Cherie: I was in terrible shape, I had to quit work, I felt like I had the flu all of the time, swollen glands, body ached all over, could barely walk around the house, I couldn’t go for a walk outside and no hope from the doctors. I prayed and prayed and prayed and said “Lord please show me what to do there’s got to be a way out of this.” And He directed me to juicing vegetables and changing my diet. When I started reading about a healthy diet I realized I was way off track, I loved junk food and fast food and I didn’t like vegetables.
Sid: (Laughing) You sound like the typical American.
Cherie: I do don’t I (Laughing)? Just running through the fast lane of life and fast food that was me so I bought my first juicer, went on a five day juice fast, on day number 5 my body expelled a tumor the size of a golf ball and that got my attention. And I thought maybe I’ll just turn the corner and tomorrow I’ll be totally well.
Sid: But wait a second I just don’t understand how things can happen you know by just juicing so fast I would think that it would take several years for something like that to happen.
Cherie: (Laughing) you know it is so amazing having now worked with a nutritionist for many years I have seen amazing things happen in a short time. For some people it does take a way while for things to turn around it just depends on how sick people are, how old they, how toxic they are and so forth. But I was young and for me my body responded very very quickly. And this was a path that God showed me that I could take for healing because now what I know as a nutritionist and with all of my science background if you give people the right materials to heal the body will heal, it will do what God designed it to do.
Sid: How long did it take you to get better?
Cherie: Well after that juice fast it took me about 3 months. I kept juicing, I ate whole foods, organic foods, mostly vegetables for the summer I’m not vegan now but I did that program and in three months I woke up one morning and said “Wow somebody gave me a new body in the middle of the night I felt like jogging and I did.”
Sid: I’ll tell you what you’re begging a question. “Why do I have to fool around with juicing why don’t I just have 5 fruits and 5 vegetables like someone said once and that’s done?” Why don’t you just do that why is juicing better or is it equivalent?
Cherie: Juicing is superior in many ways because there is several things it is broken down so well your body can absorb it very very quickly it goes right into you system because it doesn’t have the fiber to stop or to slow it down with digestion. Fiber is good don’t get me wrong and we want to eat a high fiber diet but juicing is just fabulous for getting right into your system. When people are ill digestion often is off, they don’t digest food well they don’t even digest their fruits and vegetables well. And so this gets it right into your system it’s like a pre-digestive food and you got all of those antioxidants, biophotons, vitamins, minerals, enzymes going right into your body right into your cells bringing that healing life, and this is live food. And we are told in the scripture “Choose life and I set before you life and death choose life.” And then too, number 2 “We don’t eat enough fruits and vegetables science has proven that all over the world and we should have 7 to 9 maybe 13 servings depending on the research you see and which universities. But we don’t do it this is a way to get a maximum amount easily. So I take a big bowl and juice it up and I could never chew up all of that in the morning you know.
Sid: I probably could chew it all but my refrigerator would be filled with that stuff.
Sid: Anyway you talk about marrying the natural and the supernatural what do you mean by that?
Cherie: Partnership with God that’s how I see it we do our part He has done His part and continuing to do His part all the time. The Lord has been showing me more and more how we do that in that we stand in His word. And recently I have been seeing that more and more and how we apply it His word to our hearts like a poultice on your chest. You know the old fashion poultices my grandmother used one all the time when anybody got sick. And I saw it the other day in the Spirit apply that scripture to your heart just like a poultice; lay it on there, “By His stripes you are healed; He sent His word and healed them.” Just go over all of the scriptures you can find, get on the internet pull them off print them out apply them to your heart, strengthen your spirit…
Sid: Okay wait a second Cherie if we have the powerful word which you agree and I agree why even fool around with nutrition.
Cherie: Yo, you know in here I’m so glad you asked that because people say that “Can’t I just go and get a miracle?” You know what if our diet has created our dis-ease in any way in our bodies God can heal us He can do an override I call it heal us miraculously but we’re going to go on eating our bad diet, our fast food, our junk food our things in packages and boxes devoid of nutrients we’re going to get sick again. But so often we need to partner with the Holy Spirit, we need to partner with the Father with Jesus. We need to do our part and to eat the real live whole foods that He gave us that He put on this earth for our health and healing. Scripture says He gave us every herb, He gave us these plants they are for our healing and He did not give us bonbons, He did not give us chips and dips, He did not give us fast foods and burgers and fresh fries those are man made…
Sid: I haven’t read any of that in the Bible (Laughing.)
Cherie: (Laughing) It’s not there, right?
Sid: Cherie tell me you did it the last time you were on the air but I feel it’s so important tell me about the vision that you had from God about the battlefield.
Cherie: I saw it so clearly years ago when I was in a prayer meeting for healing that I just left that room in the Spirit and I saw God’s soldiers and He gave me a vision of His people His army. And so many of them lying on the battlefield with their armor askewed their swords and their shields lying at their side and they were in pain. There were labels written across their bodies like cancer, diabetes, heart disease, fibromyalgia, AMS, lupus, scleroderma, rheumatoid arthritis on and on it went. I saw these soldiers not only in their own pain but the demonic forces really beating them up punching them and kicking them because they were down because they couldn’t stand. And the Lord said “Cherie I want you to go back to school, get a graduate degree in nutrition and I want you to teach my people because they are perishing for lack of knowledge.” And isn’t it true on every level Satan has tried to pervert what God has given us and he’s perverted our food on top of everything else. And I was seeing on that day “What was the quickest way to destroy an army if you could do it?” Poison them they would all just drop over you wouldn’t even have to do much of a fight if you poisoned the entire army with their water, their drinks, their food well that is what the enemy is doing to us with all of this adulterated food, man made stuff, things in boxes and bags and fast food and junk food and cans and sodas and on and on it goes. We’ve got poison everywhere we turn in our food supply and God is saying “Come out from among them my people and be separate choose a holy, whole. Holy means whole body, soul and spirit, choose a holy way of life, choose a holy way of eating, be My disciplined people and choose the real food whole food that God gave us.
Sid: Now you mentioned something that is going to upset a few people, I know in my control room it’s going to upset them. What happens from too much diet soda?
Cherie: Diet soda is a scary thing and I had been doing research on that more and more all the time. It’s laced with a diet sweetener and usually it’s aspartame, we know it as NutraSweet. The CDC did studies and just kept track they don’t really promote this but they just tracked it if you do your research that brain tumors increased hugely the bar graph went way up a couple of years after diet soda’s came on the market but there’s all sorts of research showing that when you drink diet sodas also it affects your metabolism and you crave more sweets and more refined carbs. So you go from more things like pasta and pizza and hamburgers.
Sid: So could you say Cherie that diet soda makes you fatter because of that?
Cherie: It makes you better?
Sid: It makes you fatter.
Cherie: It makes you worse.
Cherie: Fatter, oh fatter. Yes it does and yes and they’ve proven that in scientific studies it contributes to obesity, it contributes to a weight gain. Even if you are not obese it contributes to fat being deposited around the mid section which is the worst place to gain weight it increases your sweet tooth…
Sid: What about regular soda is that bad for us?
Cherie: That is really bad too?
Sid: Oh wait a second (Laughing.)
Cherie: They’re put at the top.
Sid: Okay why is it bad, tell me?
Cherie: It’s got a huge amount of sugar many…
Sid: What’s wrong with sugar?
Cherie: Sugar is an inflammation and anti… it’s an inflammatory excuse me; very inflammatory substance and that is what my new book the anti-inflammatory diet is all about. Inflammation is at the root of every disease there is and sugar is one of the number 1 things that contributes to inflammation in the body that contributes to everything like heart disease, cancer and diabetes, and MS, and scleroderma, and lupus and on and on, RA, rheumatoid arthritis, you can name if tall it all. Inflammation is at the base and sugar is one of the top inflammatory substances. I say to everyone get that sugar out of your diet but soda’s also got chemicals and dyes and all of that stuff. And there’s a new study out showing that junk food with all of that stuff in it is a number 1 contributor in inflammation. And so at the top of everybody’s list in science right now sodas are coming in right at the top both diet soda and regular soda. And it is subtly day by day destroying our health. Young people think that they can get away with it because you know when you’re young you think that you’ll live forever right?
Sid: (Laughing) of course.
Cherie: You think you’ll always going to be healthy and boom one day it all catches up with you and your body says “I’ve had enough of this you know and it’s getting really sick.”
Sid: Now you made a statement and it’s worth me repeating. You said inflammation is at the root of nearly every disease, so therefore my logical mind says “If we can get rid of the foods that cause inflammation and eat the food that work in a positive way you get rid of the roots of most diseases and then people won’t have to pray to be healed.” You know what it reminds me of Cherie? There might be a 400 pound man that comes up to me for me to lay hands on him to heal his back. And I know God will heal his back but I also know in 30 days he’ll be back to have his back healed.
Cherie: Yes. That is absolutely right and it’s going on all the time. My father was a healing evangelist I grew up in this kind of ministry and seeing people even as a little tiny kid seeing people coming back over and over over again. And that’s because we’re doing the things that make our bodies sick. And so they can’t stay well because we’re pouring into them things that contribute to inflammation and inflammation causes sicknesses…
Sid: Cherie are many people in the world do they have inflammation or is this a small percentage of people?
Cherie: It’s huge and it’s world wide; we’ve exported our bad foods all over the world you can go just about anywhere except maybe some little remote areas and you’ll find golden arches, you’ll find fast food restaurants, you’ll find pop, soda pop everywhere. You’ll find it all over so we’ve exported our bad poisons foods all over the world. And we have sick people all over the world with inflammation.
Sid: You know what I’m thinking just like that vision that you had of the battlefield we are praying for God to heal us and then destroying our body right after He heals us or even before He heals us. We’re like shooting ourselves in the foot. Now we have your 4 books one is brand new “The Anti-Inflammation Diet.” And the “28 Days to Restore Your Body and Feel Great.” Now that sounds like a short period of time Cherie 28 days to restore your body and feel great. You talk about losing weight, increasing energy, look and feel younger in 28 days. Is this really working with people now?
Cherie: It is really working for sure and I’ve proven it over and over again as a nutritionist and all of the people I’ve helped in counseling and different programs I’ve seen it over and over again. As I’ve talked with various holistic doctors they have told me that is about the right amount time for things to really start turning around 30 days is the amount of time. So we’re almost there with our 28 day program 4 weeks and 30 days is the amount of time it takes for your cells to begin to really turn over and for your body to really begin to change. So I always say to people “Don’t give up.” We do something a week or two we’re such an instant society we want things immediately but I say “Don’t give up give it 30 days and you should see some positive changes in your body.”
Sid: Now you tie in that 20 as you say the marriage between the supernatural and the natural you tie it in you made exclusively for our Mishpochah that’s Hebrew word that means family “The 28 Day Journey to Wholeness Devotional” tell me about that.
Cherie: Yes I’m so excited about the devotional because it goes with your 28 day food program.
Cherie: And what I’ve see was so many people I’ve worked with your spirit needs to be strengthened so many people need to be beaten down and discouraged and hopeless and nothing is ever going to change for them they’re not going to have the energy and the vibrant health that they’ve longed for and they’ve prayed for. And so I realized that day by day you need the word of God and I have in the devotional not only a teaching each day a short teaching and it’s all around the spiritual, the biblical, the scriptures but also a declaration because I feel each day with our mouth we need to speak the word. “I declare today and I have something for people to declare every single day and a prayer to close with. And I realized that people need their spirit built up and they have the willpower.
Sid: And you have the recipes and it’s not just juicing its regular food and juicing.
Sid: But you have 2 more books and a couple of them really intrigued well all of them intrigued me but “Remedies for Stress and Adrenal Fatigue, Remedies for Asthma and Allergies.” It’s the most amazing thing God gave us a body He did not want us to have lack of energy, He didn’t want us to have pain, He didn’t want us to have heart disease, He didn’t want us to have diabetes. He wanted us to live life to the fullest! And I find, I’ve read in your notes Cherie, that many people that get a hold of your books they’ve been praying and even fasting “God help me.” And God has directed them….
Speaking of investment I just back from Israel and I spoke before a group of Bishops at their meeting and there was a Bishop there from outer Mongolia. I’d heard about a Mongolia, Cherie I didn’t know where it was according to my map I could see that it’s north of Tibet, China but I didn’t realize it. This guy was in an auto accident and his back was broke 5 places and he was in constant pain for 14 years. The prognosis was he’d end up in a wheelchair and one minute with God was all that was necessary. He turns on our TV show and this is the thing that is so exciting to me our TV show is in outer Mongolia and I don’t even know where it is. So he tunes in our television show and I have a word of knowledge he’s sovereignly healed, he’s been free for over a year pain free he’s in full time ministry….when we come back I want to learn more about this insidious thing that is called inflammation. Most people don’t know what the word means I’ll be right back.
Sid: Hello Sid Roth back with Art Thomas and this is one of these interviews I wished would go on forever but Art you say that you a supernatural music gift. Why do you say your music gift is supernatural?
Art: The first reason is because I saw what I could do naturally first (Laughing).
Sid: And what did you do naturally first?
Art: (Laughing) Yeah I as a kid no singing voice whatsoever just off key and not together. And then in middle school I was in a band and I had a “D” average in which you have to be really bad to get a “D” average in middle school band. When I was just graduating out of 8th grade it was either before or after 8th grade we had a summer tent revival service at our church and somehow my mom convinced me to take the trumpet out of the back of my closet that I swore I’d never play again and to play it during this week of meetings at my church. So sheepishly I pulled it out and practiced with the worship team I would write down a little 2 note harmony that I could figure out on my sheet music and played and it was not good but it was pretty lousy I was off on most notes but all the little old ladies in our church did the little old thing “Oh it’s so wonderful to see you up there during their revival.”
Art: And sure enough they convinced me and I kept playing and just a few months went by and I realized I was always laying my trumpet on the chair and I would like to have a stand that I could put my trumpet on. So I went in our churches sound booth there was a junk corner on a whim maybe there’s a trumpet stand. And I found this stand that held about 5 or 6 different instruments there was a place for a saxophone and a flute and of course a trumpet and bingo this is it. And it belonged to a guy named Dave who passed away 5 years earlier so I knew that he didn’t need it any more.
Art: And I brought it down, set it up on stage and put my trumpet on it and all of these other apparatus were sticking out from the thing but it was great it held my trumpet. And you know I heard the story of Elijah and Elisha and it might have even been that morning in Sunday School but on a whim with child like faith I was about 16 years old I said “Lord I want this to be like Elijah’s mantle handed off to Elisha and I want double what Dave had.” And I went to get a sip of water before the worship service just like I always did and when I came back the sheet music that I had written my 3 note harmony on was gone, the worship leader had changed some songs at the last minute and here I was not know what I was going to do. The drums started playing and I’m like well “This is it.” So I picked up my trumpet and started playing by ear like I never had before in my life. And since then I’ve picked up all of these instruments pretty quickly.
Sid: How many instruments do you play right now?
Art: Well most of them I haven’t played for a long time I’ve kind of settled on piano and guitar.
Sid: How many could you play at one time?
Art: Probably a little over 20.
Sid: Twenty instruments and you can’t even sing on tune?
Art: I can sing on tune now.
Sid: Oh you can now.
Art: I actually got a voice yes and now I lead worship and I play mostly piano when I lead worship sometimes guitar; I play on my church worship team.
Sid: So just out of…let me just ask you a couple of questions because I’m curious. How long did it take you to learn how to play the piano?
Art: A week.
Sid: I protest that’s unfair. How long did it take you to learn the saxophone?
Art: Six hours.
Sid: How long did it take you to learn the flute?
Art: Two hours.
Sid: How many instruments had you been able to play?
Art: Previously I could barely crank out something on a kazoo (Chuckling).
Sid: And currently you can play?
Art: Yeah in some level of skill over 20 I’m by no means a Mozart on them but (Laughing) I can play (Laughing).
Sid: Okay we have people on the edge of their seat and I put my glasses on I have to be honest my staff knew but you don’t know I’m taking them off again. So I’m getting ready for you to pray for everyone but also me. And now does this count for any condition that anyone has that you’re going to pray for? In fact why don’t you teach for 3 or 4 minutes and then pray.
Art: A yeah Jesus paid the price 100% for your spiritual healing, emotional healing, emotional healing and wants you to be completely whole because He wants you to be able to relate to Him and obey Him to the fullest capacity that you’re able. That doesn’t mean that you can’t obey him when you’re sick but you know as well as I do that when your body is fully functioning it’s a whole lot easier to do things that you couldn’t do if you stayed the same. So what we’re going to do we’re going to seek the Lord for complete wholeness which Jesus already decided He wants to do. We don’t have to beg God because we don’t have more compassion than He does He wants it more than you do; He wants it more than I do. He was whipped for it I wasn’t by His stripes we are healed. So if I could just help you see that this is not about you doing the right thing or jumping through the right hoop it’s all about Jesus doing the right thing. He paid the price for it He wants it He would never pay for something He didn’t want. I tell people that you know if you went to Wal-Mart and bought the biggest big screen TV that you could find and you had it delivered to your house opened up the box and it was empty you’d be pretty irate you’d be at Wal-Mart you’d be on the phone you’d say “Give me my money or give me my TV.” “You don’t pay for something that you don’t want and Jesus paid a price much higher than a measly $5000 so that you could be completely whole body, soul and spirit. So right now I just speak to every sickness, every disease leave in Jesus name. Pain stop eyes open, deaf ears open in Jesus name. Back problems especially I’m feeling right now. I was healed of 4 years of degenerative disc disease in 2011 and I’m still completely whole. So I want to speak specifically to degenerative disks especially in the back and neck be complete whole receive new life right now. And I just speak to legs and knees arthritis be healed in Jesus name. Cancer disappear, tumors shrivel up. There was a woman in Africa the report came to me that she showed up with tumor on her stomach so large that she was…she looked pregnant and when we ministered healing from the stage and said…commanded tumors to leave in the name of Jesus name she said that it completely vanished. And so I just speak that over you as well as well if you’ve got tumors, you’ve got cysts they seem to melt under our hands and we know that Jesus paid for it. If there’s anybody who can test out your condition immediately start to do it start to move around and try to do something you couldn’t do don’t injure yourself if you’re not healed its okay you’re doing everything right. But if you are healed I want you to test and test it and test it and don’t be afraid to step out and see what God has done.
Sid: Okay you’ve been challenged; I’m going to tell you something you are..there is no reason why you can’t do everything that Art can do. As a matter of face I believe that you can even do it better…..Art give me a couple of nuggets that are going to help our people.
Art: Yeah I would say some people are afraid of saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing, you know there is something to be said about representing Jesus well. And I’ve learned that the only way you can do it wrong is just to miss represent Him. So you know I encourage people focus on the character side so that whether a person is healed or not the person that you ministering to still encounters a measure of Jesus. And so I want to make sure I’m walking humbly, I’m being gentle. I’ve learned that your authority is not based on the volume of your voice it’s based on Ephesians 2:6 that right now you are seated on the throne with Jesus at the right hand of the Father. You can whisper with authority and the demons will flee. The key is finding James where he said “Submit yourselves then to God resist the devil and he will flee.” So #1 Submit to God and #2 Resist the devil and if you do that you’re going to see far more results than you’ve ever imagined. But again don’t wait until your character is perfect before you step out step out the Lord will correct you. You know God told Moses to speak to a rock and water would come out and instead Moses struck it. Now the good news is water still came out of the rock. God’s desire was still accomplished; the bad news is Moses was disciplined for it. Now thankfully we’re in a covenant where Jesus takes our punishment so you know we’re not going to get kicked out of the promise land for ministering the wrong way. But the truth is He still disciplines those He loves and punishes everyone he receives as a son. And so He will correct you He’ll walk you as a son; “Son you did it wrong let’s just do it differently next time you can represent me well and we’re going to keep doing this thing together.” It’s a really great way to live and I can’t right now imagine living any other way.
Sid: Tell me about the first healing miracle once you were activated that occurred in your life.
Art: Yep this was when I preached to my youth group that Jesus wants to heal and He wants you to do it. And there was an intern in our church who being an intern had no money, no health insurance and had an ear infection that he just let go. And it was causing excruciating pain and he had actually lost some of the hearing in that ear. And so there was a group of 7th grade boys who were ministering to him just like I taught them in the sermon but again I still had never seen that happen through me. So even though I had just preached with all of this emphasis that God’s going to do it I still didn’t…I wasn’t sure that He would use me. So I stood back and let the kids minister to each other and the 7th grade boys laid hands on the intern be healed in Jesus name nothing happened. And so they…he came up to me the intern and he said “Pastor I feel bad they prayed for they prayed for me nothing happened what should I do?”
Sid: And of course that’s where I’m at right now except that’s where I’m at right now except you didn’t lay hands on me. I don’t feel bad either but I want to be able to see, what advice did you give him, what advice are you going to give me?
Art: Yep I said to those boys…I told the intern go back to them have them do the same thing again. So they did they did it again they had the 7th or 8th grade boys came up to me “Pastor we tried everything.” And I’m like “Really what did you try?” And they listed “You know we laid hands on him, we commanded him to be healed, we prayed for him.” And no I didn’t I don’t’ think it’s going to work for me I’m just trying to be a typical smart aleck youth pastor who thinks of something they haven’t done.” And I said “You didn’t try everything did you, did you try this?” And I strugged forward and stuck my finger in the interns ear and just said “Open.” And the intern said “Oh my gosh that worked.” And of course I was more surprised than he was, “I got it to work really?”
Art: I learned in that moment I didn’t even say in Jesus name like your suppose to I did everything wrong but I learned it wasn’t about having…it wasn’t about doing everything right it was simply about obeying and believing Jesus and making an opportunity for Him to touch someone. And the more we persevere the more we speak to that stuff. I mean I was healed I had scars all over my face from 2nd degree sunburn and after a vision of where the Lord I saw Him appear to Thomas and say “Put your finger where the nails were.” I felt He was speaking to me I didn’t take the pain and suffering for your sins so you don’t have to but I also even now bare the scares so you don’t have to.” And then I put my hands on my face and said “Jesus take the scars nothing, happened but I made it part of my daily routine kept laying hands on my face Jesus take the scars and within 1 month it was 4½ years before it was even medically plausible for this to happen everyone of those scars disappeared.
Sid: Alright I got my advice…