Dr Mark Gabriel (1303) 2002

Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Dr. Mark Gabriel, that is not his real name. I’m speaking to him in a city in Florida. Let me tell you Mark’s background and maybe you’ll understand why we’re doing this. He was a professor of Islamic history of the most prestigious Islamic university in the world. He not only has a Master’s but he has a Doctorate Degree in Islamic Studies. He is a man that was raised to even be an Imam in a mosque in Egypt. He had as a professor at one of the universities a man that is in prison in the United States he is that blind cleric that you’re probably familiar with that masterminded the first World Trade Center attack. He had some interesting things to say about this man, and it’s really giving me a lot of insight. I just want you to know… you know Dr. Mark and myself are just having a conversation, you just eavesdrop and just pray that the Lord would give me the wisdom to ask the questions you want to ask. On yesterday’s broadcast I couldn’t help remarking that the same thing that happened to Mohammed when he started out loving the Jewish people and when he found out the Jewish people and the Christians rejected his religion that love turned to hate, and he had many hateful writings. That’s why there seems to be such a contradiction in the Quran. It’s one group of writings you could say Islam is peace loving, and another group of writings in the same book it’s hateful. So that counts for it but it’s so similar what happened in Christianity. Many of the church fathers read the scriptures like we have today and saw God’s love for the Jewish people, saw that God wanted Jewish people to become believers in the Messiah, and as a result reached out to the Jewish community and when the Jewish community, and they should have read in Romans where it says   there’s spiritual scales on the eyes of Jewish people. When the Jewish people were doing exactly what God said was going to happen, their love turned to hate. That wasn’t God’s love because God’s love never turns to hate God is love, but man’s love when rejected turns to hate. That’s what happened to Mohammed, that’s what happened to Martin Luther. The Encyclopedia Judaica said “The whole plan of Hitler short of the gas chamber itself was outlined in sermons by Martin Luther, so it’s very similar. You wanted to comment on that Dr. Mark Gabriel?

Mark: You see I would like to say to you the reason why I do hate religion, why I do not have no respect for religion, or the spirit of religion because the reason of that spirit, what this spirit did during the history is specific to the Jewish community; even in the Middle East or even in the West. In the Middle East it’s done by the spirit of religion of Isalm, and in the West itwas done by spirit of religion of Christianity. I just wanted to say to you I was in Johannesburg in South Africa and I had debate, I had the debate with a Muslim scholar his name was Dr. Doy. He’s the president of the Islamic department in Rau University in Johannesburg. One of his questions asked me of the reasons why I convert from Islam and I become a Christian? So one of these reasons I told him because I was sure and I had seen in the history of Islam to me it was like an ocean of blood. When Muslims they stop killing and fighting, the non-Muslim they tend to each other and killing each other, so he reminds that “But the history of the Christianity it wasn’t more beautiful than the Islamic history. There is bloodshed there…” So I…

Sid: By the way I have heard on secular news programs where they talk about Islam. That’s what they bring up. They say “Listen I can pull scripture out of context from the Christian Bible and from the Jewish scriptures and show the violence of God.” So that’s the argument that they use, what would you say to that?

Mark: I said to him “You see I’m not going to judge Muslims by what they did during the history, or judging Christians by what they did during the history. I’m going to judge Islam by what the scriptures of Islam teach and said, and I’m going to judge Christians by what the Bible said.” I told him “I challenge you if you can just bring up one single verse in the New Testament that explains Jesus Christ was commanding his disciples to go and to kill and to fight in the name of Christ. But at the same time I can take you back to the Quran and I will show you that the whole chapter in the Quran, the title of the chapter ‘The Spoils of War,’ and another chapter titled it’s called ‘The Fighting.’” So I told him that Quran does teach and command to go and to kill and to die and to fight in the name of Allah, but Jesus Christ He wasn’t did something like that at all. You will find no one single verse in the Bible you see that tells us Jesus He command His disciples. So I told him “Man… The heart of man is almost deceitful. Man without the Spirit of God and the love of God he will be the most worst and the most aggressive person in the world.” So this is why I do believe that Quran it wasn’t really the word of God because of the way he teach about hatred, about killing, about destroying, and this was what the Bible tells me that this is the reason for the false prophet, this is the fruit of the false prophets.

Sid: Let me ask you a question Dr. Mark Gabriel. What is, and this I believe we must know, what is the ultimate goal of Islam?

Mark: The ultimate goal of Islam that… Mohammed when he came he explained that he didn’t present a new religion to the world. He is the final prophet of the prophets that was sent by God. He came with the final revelation with the final testament. He said in “The entire world must submit to that revelation.” And he said “The ultimate of Quran is to see the world submitted to the revelation of Islam, practicing Islam, converted to Islam.” This is the why Islamic law gives 3 options to the people who didn’t convert to Islam. Islam gives 3 options for the Muslim state to take it outside the Islamic world to the non-Muslims and to say to them:

  1. “Okay we present this Islamic religion for you. On the same conversion are you going to believe?” If the person converts to Islam he will be Muslim, he will be free, he will be okay.
  2. “But if you, as a Jew, you refuse to become a Muslim, the second requirement you have to pay or choice, you have to pay tax, then we can let you to practice your religion and to be alone with yourself and your religion.”
  3. “But if you’re going refuse to pay a tax to the Islamic state you will be killed.”

Sid: What if you happen to be Jewish or Christian and you proselytize, you tell people about Jesus, or you tell people about Judaism, what would happen to you in a Muslim country?

Mark: Yeah this is a very good question. In Islamic country the entire world heard about this Edward who was caught in Afghanistan who was captured by Taliban. They choose by Taliban government that they are preaching the gospel in Afghanistan. They was also arrested almost 15 or 16, I forgot who was accepted Jesus by the mission of this workers there. However, it was 2 American ladies with this group there. Edward was watching why these people captured, why these people put into prison, why these people going to be judged by the Islamic court there in Kabul. You see according to the Islamic law a Christian or Jews they are not allowed to preach their religion in the Islamic land, or the Islamic world. If they going to catch they will be killed.

Sid: Does the Quran permit Muslims to lie?

Mark: Yes the Quran does command Muslims to lie in specific circumstances. Also the Hadith because there are 2 sources for the Muslims believe which means the Quran and the Hadith. The Quran is the word of Allah, the God of Islam who was revealed by the angel Gabriel to Mohammed, and the Hadith is the books record what Mohammed said and what he did in his life. So the Quran and the Hadith both they require and they command Muslims to lie in specific circumstances. Like in the war a Muslim can lie to the non-Muslims, like if a Muslim living in a foreign country and it’s not run by Islamic law he can lie if that lie can help him to avoid persecution…

Sid: Let me ask you another question. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a loving Father. Is there any description of Allah being a loving father in the Quran?

Mark: This is very hard to find something like that in the Quran. Only you can find the Quran use the word of love, or loving when the Quran speaks about the Muslims he’s going to the war to fight for the cause of Allah. Like many verses says (speaking in Arabic) “Allah he loves the people who go and fight for his cause.”

Sid: Hmm.

Mark: Many verses describe that and use the word loving.

Sid: Well we’re out of time right now.

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